The conflict in Gaza, which started 18 months ago, has given rise to a variety of cultural and media creations along with the associated personalities. Movies such as “No Other Land”, “October 8th” and “The Encampments” have all been successful at the box office recently amidst the ongoing conflicts abroad (and on American streets). Audiences are drawn to these productions to understand, and also to express and communicate, their standpoints.
The issue has expanded beyond its original realm and even affected other forms of entertainment, such as when the Irish band Kneecap posted controversial anti-Israel statements during their performance at Coachella over the weekend.
Prominent among the key players in this conflict is Hen Mazzig. Originally from Israel, Mazzig is a well-known activist, writer, and social media influencer, boasting over half a million followers on Twitter and Instagram. He frequently shares pro-Israel perspectives on current events and offers advice to others on expressing similar viewpoints. Furthermore, he’s the mastermind behind “And They’re Jewish with Hen Mazzig“, a recently launched YouTube series that features conversations with celebrities like Debra Messing, Emmanuelle Chriqui, and other public figures about their careers and Jewish heritage.
In the midst of the ongoing conflict, Kei Pritsker has emerged as a notable figure. A passionate activist and journalist, he resided at a pro-Palestinian encampment at Columbia University last year and recorded much of it for the upcoming documentary film, The Encampments, which was executive produced by Macklemore. This documentary, focusing on Mahmoud Khalil and other activists, was recently released in cinemas this month, with Pritsker serving as one of its two directors (as reviewed by The Hollywood Reporter last week). Notably, Pritsker openly identifies himself as a strong advocate for the Palestinian cause and holds firm anti-Israel sentiments.
In an unusual encounter, a fervent supporter of Palestine and a staunch supporter of Israel, Mazzig and Pritsker, decided to engage in a debate with no specific topics set in advance. The ensuing discussion, as you’ll notice, was unrestricted, allowing both parties to express their deeply held beliefs about various issues. Last Thursday, they connected virtually to discuss the Middle East, Gaza, Hamas, Trump, university campuses, and numerous other contentious topics with fervor and intensity.
Keep in mind that the dialogue has been slightly modified for clarity, primarily to eliminate redundancies or tangents. Regardless of one’s political leanings, their discourse might provoke feelings of anger, vindication, and enlightenment — possibly all at once.
THR: Let’s start by introducing ourselves. Hen, why don’t you start?
Hen Mazzig: Hi there, I’m Hen Mazzig. I hail from Israel and currently reside in London with my non-Jewish partner. I’ve made a name for myself as an author, activist, and founder of the Tel Aviv Institute. My roots trace back to Iraq and North Africa. Throughout my life, I’ve been committed to championing Jewish causes and combating antisemitism and hate on the internet in all its guises.
Hello, I’m Kei Pritsker. I share the role of director at The Encampments. Professionally, I work as a journalist for Breakthrough News.
HM: I was just interested in your background, Kei.
Individual: As a journalist and a student activist, I’ve been deeply invested in Palestinian issues, having actively participated in various student groups related to this cause throughout a significant portion of my life.
HM: Got it, OK sorry.
Let’s begin by discussing some recent events that pertain to your areas of interest. In the last few weeks, there have been two significant incidents: the Mahmoud Khalil arrest and deportation process, followed by the Mohsen Mahdawi case. I’d like to ask each of you to share your thoughts on these cases. Kei, as this seems to be within your area of expertise, perhaps you could start.
Can we talk about a couple recent events that relate to what you both know well? The Mahmoud Khalil arrest and deportation, then the Mohsen Mahdawi case. Would you please share your thoughts on these cases, Kei since this seems to be something you’re familiar with, let’s start there.
repression and censorship. This is why there’s such a strong push from the Trump administration to suppress pro-Palestine speech and freedom of expression. It’s almost unheard of to face deportation in the United States for expressing criticism – only Israel comes close in this regard.
It’s becoming increasingly clear that this is a coordinated attempt to penalize those who advocate for Palestine. The shift in public opinion and awareness in the U.S. has been significant. For instance, a recent survey revealed negative views of Israel among Americans for the first time in decades. This change is largely due to the efforts of pro-Palestine activists and people gaining insight into Israel’s actions over the past two years, as well as understanding the history of Zionism. It seems that they’ve lost control of the narrative and are now resorting to questionable tactics like abductions. I find it reprehensible and believe their actions will ultimately backfire.
Could you help me understand how Kei’s words align with the actions the administration has taken lately?
It’s quite surprising and unfair for Kei to make such statements, especially considering the personal experiences I have with abductions – my relatives and acquaintances were kidnapped on October 7 by Hamas, a recognized terrorist organization. To suggest that the Trump administration is being manipulated by Israel, implying that Israel has infiltrated America through college encampments, particularly those funded by Qatar, who are known supporters of Hamas, is not only misleading but also dangerous. While I don’t support Trump or his methods of deportation, it’s crucial to be cautious with our language, especially when discussing sensitive topics like this. It seems to me that pro-Palestine activists are intentionally framing the issue in a certain way to portray Jewish students as the aggressors, and they deliberately exclude any voice from Jewish students in their film.
Portraying Jewish students at these gatherings as if they were representative of the Jewish community is similar to claiming, “We’re not bigoted, we have some non-White individuals we can advocate for.” Kanye West infamously stated that slavery was a choice. It’s evident that he is not a voice for the Black community. Similarly, these encampments present a small subset of American Jews who do not reflect the majority of American Jewry, which overwhelmingly identifies as Zionist. According to Pew Research, more than 90% of American Jews express a positive sentiment towards Israel.
Essentially, this entire spectacle serves as a disguise for deep-seated hatred, directing it towards us, falsely implicating us in the arrests or attacks against Jewish students who live in constant fear. In these encampments, chants like “al-Qassam’s next target” can be heard. Mahmoud Khalil is associated with Hamas. The Instagram account of an anti-Israel group at Columbia was activated right before the Oct 7 attacks. Leaders like Ali Khamenei of Iran praise their actions, saying things like “I am so proud of what you’re doing.” I find this appalling. I wouldn’t call it a success. It’s hard to comprehend how they can maintain such contradictory beliefs; claiming they are being silenced while media outlets like The New York Times, CNN, and BBC are extensively covering the conflict, as if it’s the only one in history, while conflicts in places like Sudan or Darfur receive little to no attention.
It seems to me there’s a puzzling aspect to this discussion: why is the focus on students who have used hate speech towards Jews over the past 18 months, while the real victims of deportation are not being addressed? The conversation often revolves around privileged students at Columbia who can afford expensive tuition fees, yet they’re labeled as victims. This situation strikes me as quite unusual.
Hi Kei, could you share your thoughts on Henry’s claim that your film didn’t provide a voice for pro-Israel Jewish perspectives, while at the same time perhaps underrepresenting the backgrounds of pro-Palestinian activists?
KP: Hen, did you watch our film?
HM: Absolutely.
The narrative includes a segment focusing on the pro-Israel faction’s presence at these camps and their interactions with people, which often involved comments such as “May you be raped,” or “I hope you are raped,” and “If you went to Gaza, you would be killed.
HM [sarcastically]: Raped? Why would they use this example?
The statement “KP” refers to individuals who are gay. Additionally, there was a violent group, often supportive of Israel, that invaded UCLA and physically assaulted students, causing injuries, and even fired fireworks into the encampments, potentially lethal actions. It’s important to note that we presented both perspectives in our coverage. We showed what pro-Israel students said to the pro-Palestine side, but also included non-Zionist, pro-Palestine Jewish students because the media coverage you mentioned was heavily biased towards Israel. You’re correct that the encampments received extensive coverage, but it was entirely one-sided, focusing on alleged anti-Semitism, incidents of violence, and portraying the encampments as violent dens. However, there was no truth to these claims, and no video evidence was presented supporting the idea that Jewish students were being attacked. The evidence provided for anti-Semitism consisted of phrases like “Free Palestine” or “From the River to the Sea.” In reality, the media coverage was excessively fixated on non-existent anti-Semitism.
Note: October 8 refers to the date of the film being discussed.
Our intention for releasing the movie was to counteract the biased media portrayal, as most of these reports were originating from individuals who had never set foot in a refugee camp. Personally, I resided within the Columbia encampment for 12 days. Moreover, I moved to the United States because my grandparents on my father’s side were forced out of Ukraine due to antisemitic pogroms. If I encountered genuine antisemitism there, I would have departed, voiced my concerns, or spoken up about it. However, I didn’t observe any signs of it at all.
Our aim is to discuss the rising trend among Jewish students who are anti-Zionist, a group that’s becoming increasingly prominent. Many young Jews in the U.S. are understanding that their Judaism doesn’t need to be linked with extreme nationalism or a Jewish state that harms people, one that bombs hospitals and schools, and denies the rights of Palestinians to live in their homeland. This is a response from Jews across the board. My objective here is to correct a biased narrative that has been heavily influenced by mainstream media. We aim to give these students a platform to express themselves directly.
Regarding Kei’s observation that there was a significant amount of criticism directed towards these students, both from the media and political figures, I would say it’s crucial to acknowledge and address the potential for unfair treatment or biased portrayals. It is essential to maintain an objective perspective and encourage open dialogue and understanding rather than resorting to vilification or stereotyping.
As for the Jewish protesters depicted in the film who are practicing their faith within the encampments and advocating for a Jewish identity separate from the state of Israel, it’s essential to view them with empathy and respect. They should be seen as individuals exercising their right to freedom of religion and expression, and their beliefs and actions should not be judged solely based on their religious or national affiliation. Instead, we should strive for a deeper understanding of their perspectives and encourage dialogue that fosters mutual respect and cooperation.
Indeed, there are anti-Zionist Jews, but it’s problematic that they appear to be predominantly portrayed in this film. The fact is, the majority of American Jews and an additional seven million Jews reside in Israel, making them a significant group. However, being a growing phenomenon doesn’t necessarily mean it’s widespread or representative. It’s like suggesting Caitlyn Jenner represents all transgender women, which is absurd. Instead, it seems that this film is tokenizing and misrepresenting a marginalized Jewish community to serve their own malicious purposes. This isn’t about caring for Jews or wanting them to be represented; rather, it’s about deep-seated hatred, manipulation, and gaslighting. I must admit, I feel strongly that they inhabit an alternate reality. I’ve viewed videos of these campus incidents – not the encampments because, strangely, I’m barred from there – and they depict violence against young Jewish students, causing them fear for their safety. In fact, a non-Jewish janitor was abducted at Columbia University. To claim that antisemitism isn’t present in these encampments is preposterous. They weren’t advocating for Palestine; they were endorsing Hamas.
The film Kei referred to on October 8 contained footage of protesters claiming affiliation with Hamas, a terrorist group responsible for the brutal deaths and kidnappings of over 1,000 Israelis the previous day. This has led to strong emotions among Jewish students, who have spoken out against the reported rape of young girls returned from Hamas captivity. A former hostage, Amit Soussana, has testified about her rape experience, but instead of addressing this issue honestly, she was dismissed and told she was lying. It’s possible that such dismissive comments about rape are what sparked the controversy.
However, it’s important to acknowledge the distress Jewish students are experiencing. If someone did suggest that someone should be raped, I can’t confirm if this is true, but if it happened, it’s abhorrent. Similarly, denying the experiences of Jewish women who have been raped and claiming they weren’t in danger when their dorms are being vandalized and chants of “Zionists Get Out” are heard is equally reprehensible. We should remember that the majority of Jews identify as Zionists, believing in Israel’s right to exist. Therefore, these chants are essentially coded hate speech against Jews. It’s crucial to empathize with their feelings under such circumstances.
Kei, it seems you’re fortunate to not find Jewish communities intimidating, which is commendable for you. However, the majority of Jewish students I interact with and many Jews in America have a vastly different experience. Therefore, while it’s wonderful that you’re involved in a small segment of the Jewish community, your focus on presenting a positive image might not accurately reflect the reality. The truth is, there’s extensive documented evidence of violence and hate directed towards Jews, easily found with a simple internet search. It’s important to acknowledge this harsh truth rather than glossing over it.
KP: if you’re saying there was violence that took place, tell me what happened.
You: Is it concerning to you, or considered acceptable, if a sign reads “al-Qassam’s next target”? Is this a legitimate move, or could it be seen as inciting violence? What do you make of it?
KP: Sorry, well you said someone was attacked. Who got attacked?
HM: I’ll locate instances where Jewish students were assaulted, though it’s worth noting that such information is readily available online if one searches for it. I recall vividly a student in Los Angeles who suffered severe injuries during an attack.
AL: Indeed, those individuals were students from the Palestine camp. You may recall seeing them in our movie; have you watched our film yet? Those students in the Palestine camp were brutally removed and assaulted by a Zionist group, and they launched fireworks towards the UCLA camps. This incident represented pro-Israeli aggression. The assailants were supporters of Israel who physically attacked those backing Palestine. By any chance, were Jewish students among those who suffered the subsequent attacks?
AL: Isn’t it concerning when someone suggests murdering Jewish students? You don’t consider this as an attack or a form of violence?
KP: I don’t agree with it. But it’s speech. It’s not violence.
HM: Oh it’s speech? To call someone to be killed is speech Kei? Are you serious?
KP: I don’t agree with it. But you said someone was attacked.
Assistant: I’ve got some links for you, no need to fret! Here they are. One of these links leads to an incident involving two Jewish students at DePaul University. Rest assured, I’ll gather all the relevant links and sources for you.
In simpler terms, it appears that there have been instances that everyone here finds problematic. Making comments like telling a Jewish student they’re next on al-Qassam’s list or telling them to go back to Poland is not acceptable speech, and I believe we can all agree on this. So, Kei, the question from Hen seems to be whether you think these incidents were typical, reflective of the culture, or if they were unusual occurrences that didn’t represent the community.
Essentially, that’s my point. The articles Henry is sharing seem to support my argument. However, it’s important to note that I’m not speaking for every individual who has ever voiced the phrase “Free Palestine”. I’m merely stating that the alleged attacks weren’t occurring at the encampments. In the chat, you might be coming across as repetitive—almost like spamming.
HM: Sorry, I’m sending too many examples of attacks on Jews.
KP: No, I mean you said a Jewish student was attacked.
AL: I asserted that Jewish students were targeted in violent incidents. Instances of such attacks occurred within their dormitories, and there was an instance of Jews being assaulted outside a synagogue in California. You claim these events didn’t occur as part of the encampment, but it’s challenging to distinguish when assailants wear masks. However, this hostile sentiment is what’s fostering violence against Jewish communities. If you insist that Jews weren’t attacked, we may hold differing perspectives on reality, and I must say, I find it hard to comprehend your viewpoint given the evidence at hand.
RP: In other words, I’m clarifying that no instances of attacks on Jewish students at encampments occurred, and the provided links do not serve as evidence for such occurrences.
HM: Because they weren’t allowed in.
Additionally, it’s worth noting that there is substantial proof indicating pro-Israel students were attacking the encampments. However, I want to clarify that not every protest had instances of poor conduct. We can all agree that violence against anyone is unacceptable and that we should not be attacking people for their views. What I’m trying to convey is that saying “from the river to the sea” or wearing a keffiyeh to class may seem antisemitic to some, but in reality, they are expressions advocating for an end to a 75-year occupation and human rights violations that have been widely criticized globally. These statements represent legitimate speech, unfortunately, against a tragic and ironically violent occupation that is taking place in Palestine.
As a gamer, it’s frustrating to see the focus constantly on perceived issues like Jewish students feeling unsafe due to flags being waved. However, the real concern should be the actual situation – entire cities being erased from existence. It’s bewildering that there’s little to no discussion about this fact. Our film centers around this very issue: the destruction of every university in Gaza by Israel. I can’t help but wonder, what is your take on that? What are your thoughts on the safety and education of Palestinian students who have had their institutions systematically dismantled? This is a matter that deserves attention and discussion.
Let me address this momentarily. Just to clarify, I didn’t suggest that peaceful signs instigated the Jewish students. Instead, it was a student brandishing a sign reading “al-Qassam’s next target,” with an arrow pointing towards a Jewish student. It’s important to note that there was no violence within the encampments as they were closed off to Jewish students.
KP: —No that’s not true, there were Jewish students in the Columbia encampment in our film—
As a gamer, I’d like to share my thoughts on this matter. I strongly oppose any institution that discriminates against students based on their religious beliefs. If a school refuses admission to those who won’t endorse hatred towards half of Israel’s Jewish population, then it’s understandable why such incidents didn’t occur in the encampments – there were no dissenting voices to provoke organizers. However, closing these places down and ensuring they become sterile areas for Jews seems questionable, especially when considering the 90% of American Jews who identify as Zionists.
The testimonies I’ve heard about students in these encampments not receiving adequate humanitarian aid or food seem strange to me. As someone who has been an advocate for peace between Israelis and Palestinians for many years, and who spent five years working on hospital construction in Gaza, the West Bank, Hebron, and Ramallah, I’m deeply invested in bridging gaps through peaceful means.
The situation in Gaza is heart-wrenching, it’s been horrific since October 7 when the world remained silent about what transpired, and it remains horrific to this day.
Anthony Blinken has stated that global protests have given Hamas increased confidence. However, despite being in a dire situation as described by Kei, Hamas persists in holding hostages and oppressing Palestinians in Gaza. They refuse to release the hostages or cease their actions, which, according to your statement, would end the conflict. Surprisingly, no one from the encampments has publicly called for the release of the hostages. When asked about it, they replied, “Well, that’s just a given.” Yet, they seem to ignore other crucial points in their argument.
If the hostages are freed, the conflict would come to an end. However, women in Gaza who were raped by Hamas have been met with silence from them. Not just silence, but they’ve also accused Israeli women of lying and justified the killing of babies living in Israel. Yet, they remain silent on far more egregious human rights abuses, even earning praise from the Supreme Leader of Iran, a country known for its brutal treatment of LGBTQ+ individuals. Strangely, they haven’t spoken up for these victims, nor have they shown concern for gay Iranians. Their concern seems to be solely with Israel, as per Kei’s assertion, it is seen as an ethnostate. Can you name another Middle Eastern country that isn’t an ethnostate? The ethnicity in question here appears to be Jewish or Arab, but my family originates from Iraq and Tunisia, making us of the same ethnicity.
One final point — I find it hard to take this film seriously when Macklemore, who has been accused of antisemitism and has made offensive gestures, is involved in its production. He has a history of wearing stereotypical Jewish costumes on stage, promoting anti-Palestinian views, and producing movies. It’s intriguing to me why this person, who has engaged in antisemitic behavior, would be chosen as the public face for this film. Would you accept someone with a history of racism as the lead for a movie about the Black community?
KP: What’s this Macklemore issue?
HM: Why, it’s not a part of your film?
KP: I don’t know, what’s your issue with Macklemore?
HM: I’m asking if it’s a part of your film.
KP: If what’s a part of my film?
If Macklemore produced the film. He was an ep, yes?
KP: Ya he’s the executive producer.
Yes, indeed, he has faced strong criticism from the Jewish community due to his portrayal of a stereotypical Jewish nose and sporting a Jewish-style beard on stage. His actions have been perceived as antisemitic, leading him to issue a public apology in 2014 for offending thousands with his performance.
KP: To be honest, I wasn’t aware of this incident before, but it seems he has apologized for it. I trust people’s ability to learn from their mistakes and grow. From my experience with him, I haven’t detected any anti-Semitic sentiments. He frequently interacts with Jews and has been vocal about the Palestine issue, which is why we invited him on our platform. He stood up against the genocide at a time when it was risky for his career, so that’s why we chose him. However, I can’t comment on anyone’s past, but based on what I know, it appears…
HM: I apologize for interrupting, but it’s crucial we address this: Macklemore donned a long nose and a Hasidic costume on stage, which has offended the Jewish community. This kind of action is leading to increased violence against Jews, as we’ve witnessed. To be straightforward, would you tolerate someone who used blackface?
KP: No, no of course not. But it looks like he apologized.
User: If someone who had previously used blackface apologizes, would you still consider them a suitable candidate for a producer role?
It’s possible for individuals to transform, and if someone recognizes they made a mistake, that’s acceptable. I simply wasn’t privy to the information at the time.
As a gamer, if I’m interpreting Hen’s question correctly, it seems like they’re wondering if the inclusion of Macklemore in the film, combined with less focus on hostage situations, could potentially suggest an anti-Semitic undertone rather than just being anti-Zionist. Is that the gist of your question, Hen?
I believe he may have erred, and after an apology, you’re portraying him as a hateful anti-Semite. Regarding the hostages, there are Palestinian hostages, with Israel detaining tens of thousands annually without charges. Children as young as 12 are imprisoned for throwing stones at armed vehicles. When discussing hostages, I think it’s important to focus on freeing all hostages from both sides. It confuses me why you’re implying that the students are anti-Semitic because they don’t discuss Israeli hostages, while we never demand that pro-Israel individuals speak about the thousands of Palestinians in Israeli prisons. We aren’t asking Hen to explain these actions. I don’t understand why the students are being asked to talk about 200 Israeli hostages.
Hen what would you say to that?
Just checking, the 10,000 Palestinian detainees – referred to as hostages by some – are individuals who have been convicted of crimes and are currently serving their sentences in Israeli prisons. Correct? These prisoners receive visits from their families, which are facilitated by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). I’ve personally helped coordinate many such visits. The ICRC ensures that these detainees are being treated humanely. In fact, during a recent prisoner exchange, eight Palestinian inmates declined to return to Gaza because they preferred their living conditions in these prisons over what they had experienced before.
KP: That’s absurd.
– It’s not much, but it serves as a signal that they’re not captives. Describing them in such a manner is essentially intended for only one purpose, which is…
KP: Sorry, I think they probably didn’t want to go back because Israel destroyed Gaza.
Fascinating, it seems they prefer remaining captive instead. However, no Israeli hostage willingly chose to remain in the tunnels. That’s the contrast we’re dealing with here.
Indeed, since it’s Israel who is causing the deaths of numerous hostages. If Netanyahu and Israel truly valued the safety of these hostages, they wouldn’t be indiscriminately attacking the location where the hostages are being kept.
HM: Kei, have you been to Gaza?
KP: What?
HM: Have you been to Gaza? Have you been to a war in your life?
KP: No but I don’t need to go to Gaza—
HM: Instead of accusing people as being killed by Israelis, let’s agree that every time a hostage is killed during this conflict, it’s a heartbreaking tragedy for everyone involved, including civilians. It’s truly horrifying to witness any civilian deaths in war. However, using such tragedies to attack me with the claim that my army deliberately kills hostages isn’t fair or accurate.
KP: How am I weaponizing?
It’s regrettable that Hamas abducted those hostages, forcibly removing them from their homes and confining them in underground tunnels. It’s particularly distressing to consider the innocent babies taken away from their beds along with their mothers, and the women who were violently taken from her bed and subjected to sexual assault in the Gaza tunnels. The silence on this matter becomes problematic when one primarily discusses the situation in Gaza.
In fact, what’s important to understand is that this situation didn’t emerge just on October 7th; this is a point that the demonstrators have been emphasizing.
HM: When did it start? When my family was forced out of Iraq in 1941? When?
You could travel as far back as the First Zionist Congress, which occurred over 100 years ago, or even beyond that point.
HM: So when?
AP: What I’d like to highlight is that the basis of your movie portrays a conflict or genocide commencing on October 7, then continuing on October 8. However, the ongoing genocide in Gaza actually began in 2007 when Israel enforced a comprehensive naval, ground, and air blockade on Gaza.
HM: They have a border with Egypt.
KP: Let me finish.
Assistant: Israel shares a boundary with Egypt. How exactly did Israel establish a blockade? Is it because they are considered superior? It seems you criticize Israel but not Egypt in this case.
KP: No I criticize Egypt.
Assistant: Haven’t you taken part in any demonstrations concerning Egypt? I must admit, I haven’t noticed any visible symbols or references to it, not even in the movies you’ve shown me.
KP: Because the film wasn’t about the protests.
HM: Oh it was about Israel.
AL: We’re highly critical of the Egyptian government, but let me clarify. In 2007, Israel enforced a complete embargo on the Gaza Strip, controlling all incoming and outgoing items. This policy has been likened to an open-air concentration camp, and for good reason. An Israeli Knesset minister once made a joke that Israel was putting the Gazans on a diet, meaning that they have such tight control over the food supply in Gaza that they can even monitor the caloric intake of its people. The genocide in Gaza didn’t begin on October 7; long before that, there was a UN report from 2018 predicting that Gaza would be uninhabitable by 2020. Before October 7, 95% of the water in Gaza was unsafe for human consumption, and the average Palestinian in Gaza only had four hours of electricity per day. Given these conditions, it’s not surprising that people living in an open-air concentration camp would want to escape.
I’d like to clear up any misunderstanding: Hen wasn’t part of the film on October 8. The fact that Debra Messing, who appears in his show, served as an executive producer might have caused some confusion. To further emphasize Kei’s point, some pro-Palestinian activists argue that the conflict didn’t start on October 7, but rather has roots going back to 1967 or even 1948. They view October 7 not as the beginning, but as a climax. What are your thoughts on this perspective?
It’s Israel’s policy, and it’s undeniable that collective punishment is a violation of human rights. Whether or not one supports Hamas or agrees with their actions, to impose a blockade on two million people simply because they chose a government we dislike in an election [in 2007] is a breach of human rights.
HM: That we “don’t like.” Do you think Hamas was elected democratically? Come on.
International observers had been present during the election, overseeing the process regardless of personal opinions about it.
HM: That’s why there’s a war. Because we don’t like an election.
Gamer: Hey there! You know, if you keep us trapped in such a state, it’s only natural we’d eventually rebel. I mean, were we supposed to just endure this, accept it as our fate, never voice our dissatisfaction or try to change things? Are we expected to simply submit and be content with this status quo? It doesn’t seem right to me.
HM: No, so we’re supposed to sit there and take it when 1,200 people are being killed—
KP: You’re collectively punishing—
HM: That’s what you’re saying though. You’re saying that we should take it.
KP: You’re collectively punishing everyone in Gaza.
I (as a fan): It seems like you’re suggesting that since we don’t fully comprehend the implications of territorial boundaries, it’s acceptable for us to seize others and hold them captive. This perspective is alarming, as I firmly believe that respect for sovereignty and human rights should always be prioritized over misunderstanding or disagreement.
The people of Gaza are being collectively penalized not because of any wrongdoing on their part, but simply due to them exercising their right to vote in an election.
The war isn’t a form of retribution. Instead, it started as a response to the horrific event that took place on October 7, where around 1,200 individuals were tragically killed in a single day.
KP: No there’s a war because Israel is enforcing a genocidal blockade policy in Gaza.
HM: You are supporting 1,200 people being killed and a baby being choked to death—
KP: You’re supporting 200,000 people being killed—
Guys, I understand the passion on both sides. If we can—
My passion stems from a deep personal connection. It’s for the sake of my family, and because some of my friends have been lost. This is why I am so dedicated and passionate about the cause. I’m not entirely certain, but this is how I feel.
KP: It doesn’t matter if it’s your family.
HM: It doesn’t matter if it’s my family?! Are you insane? No, I’m sorry Steve, I can’t—
Alright folks, let’s refocus the conversation here – I recognize that emotions are running high, as we all have personal investments in this matter and a shared passion. However, let’s redirect our discussion towards U.S. policy. After discussing Khalil and other incidents, it’s clear that there are many ongoing issues on campuses today. Recently, the Trump administration has taken action against Harvard and Columbia, alleging antisemitism. I’d like to ask both of you for your thoughts on this new policy – whether we should support it, if it could potentially bring about any positive change, as I believe we all desire peace. Hen, why don’t you start by sharing your perspective on this approach?
HM: I need a minute. So let him go first [goes camera-off].
Essentially, this policy is a mirror of the broader predicament facing the Trump administration, the military-industrial complex, Zionism, and Israel: they’ve lost their persuasive argument, particularly among the younger generation. The pro-Israel camp is propagating an increasingly anxious conspiracy theory to explain this shift, claiming that the world is inherently antisemitic, that organizations such as the United Nations, the International Court of Justice, The New York Times, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Harvard University, Columbia University, and even students are antisemitic. However, I believe the actual reason lies elsewhere. I think people are not becoming suddenly hateful towards Jews; rather, they are repulsed by the sight of infants being burned in their cribs, by the destruction of livelihoods, and by entire families being wiped out. People find genocide abhorrent. Furthermore, people are disillusioned with their government for sending money, weapons, and deadly missiles that obliterate apartment complexes and journalists. Israel is particularly opposed to the truth about this conflict being exposed, as it has been the deadliest one for journalists.
Hey Kei, I’ve got a question about that score we discussed earlier. You brought up various organizations, and some people on the right claim that there is an inherent issue with antisemitism within left-wing groups, particularly those supportive of Palestine. Do you believe this to be accurate? Although it’s been documented that individuals on the right and far-right have issues with antisemitism, I’ve written about some examples. However, does this apply to the pro-Palestine movement as well? A recent tweet from Hen brought up an instance of this, concerning the individual who allegedly tried to set fire to Josh Shapiro’s house, who cited the Free Palestine movement as motivation. The argument is that there’s a normalization happening where antisemitism is accepted and could potentially lead individuals like the suspect to commit heinous acts. Is this a concern within the Free Palestine movement, in your opinion?
As a gamer, Upon examining the Josh Shapiro incident, it’s evident from the video that the suspect appears to be struggling mentally. He had never shared content about Palestine before, making the claim that he was some sort of Palestinian activist seem far-fetched. I personally believe his actions might stem from mental health issues rather than any affiliation with the Palestinian movement.
So you’re not concerned about normalization of antisemitic rhetoric.
Once more, Henry appears to be drawing a misleading parallel between being anti-Zionist and being antisemitic. While there is indeed rising opposition to Israel in the U.S., I don’t think it’s accurate to claim that this has resulted in attacks on Jewish people. In fact, many of the antisemitic incidents cited in the ADL’s report are simply expressions of support for Palestine or wearing a keffiyeh and saying “Free Palestine.” Such actions do not equate to antisemitism.
What’s your take on this, could you comment on the notion that equating anti-Semitism with an anti-Zionist movement is a misleading comparison?
The individual who recently tried to torch a Jewish family and the governor, Josh Shapiro, had previously expressed support for a two-state solution, stating he wanted Israelis and Palestinians to live peacefully together, each controlling their own future. This statement seems like a call for harmony and coexistence, but it led this person to commit an act of extreme antisemitism. There’s been a significant surge in antisemitic incidents in America since October 7, including statements about Palestine similar to the one mentioned, which unfortunately have encouraged such violent acts. It’s concerning that antisemitism is present on both sides of the political spectrum, and it seems that people are less aware or concerned about antisemitism compared to other forms of discrimination, like racism or homophobia. For instance, Kei was unaware that Macklemore had used Jewface, an offensive caricature of Jewish people, which shows a lack of sensitivity towards this issue.
I might discuss for a moment about my work involving “And They’re Jewish“. What intrigues me is the stark difference between “The Encampments” and my project, as it seems disconnected from them. Kei mentioned that connection doesn’t matter, but I feel personally connected, being deeply involved in this subject. The distinction lies in that his film portrays Jewish identity through a lens of political anger, using chants, erasure, and defining antisemitism for Jews. It’s highly politicized, often reducing Jews to background noise or villains. On the other hand, “And They’re Jewish” emphasizes joy, creativity, diversity, and human qualities. It serves as a reminder that Jews are not merely headlines or symbols in protests; we are real, complex, vibrant individuals. Given the current situation, I believe the world needs more of this positive representation, as the dehumanization we see from the encampments and other causes is fueling violence against us. There’s evidence that dehumanization of Jews has led to violence in the past, most notably during the Holocaust where six million Jews were targeted.
Our concern today lies in the potential consequences of the devaluation and casual treatment of Jewish identity within the pro-Palestine movement, even if they claim their rhetoric is only about Zionism or the seven million Jews living in Israel whom they deem deserving of violence, such distinctions do not alleviate our worry. The reality is that these harmful words fuel actions, as we’ve seen with the brutal attack on a 70-year-old Jewish man during a protest in California, or the burning of Josh Shapiro’s house, or the escalating violence against us within this country, and ultimately lead to us being dismissed when discussing the heinous acts committed on October 7.
Hey guys, it was great discussing the show with you, Hen, and having our movie chat, Kei! I think it’s fantastic that we all support each other in our creative endeavors. Even if we don’t always see eye-to-eye on everything, let’s keep watching each other’s work and also check out new stuff from people who might have different perspectives. We only have one more question left, so I’ll ask both of you this: What’s one thing you’d like to see change in your own field? Something that could be thought about or done differently. Let’s start with Hen, what say you?
User: It would be great if more individuals from the pro-Israel community could advocate for Palestinian civilians. I believe it’s crucial to discuss the hardships experienced by people on both sides, and to portray Israelis and Palestinians as real human beings rather than mere characters in a tragic tale. I want us to remember that there are actual individuals involved, not just pieces being moved around on a game board. I hope for a time when both Israelis and Palestinians are seen as human beings on both sides.
Hen, I appreciate your input. Now, over to you, Kei. Are there any adjustments or improvements you’d suggest regarding the tasks from your side?
RP: It seems there’s a significant number of Americans who are being manipulated or given false information about the true nature of Palestinians, much like after 9/11 when many were led to believe that most Muslims are violent and hateful, painting them as our enemies. However, the truth is, the real adversary isn’t the Palestinians, or even the Lebanese people, but rather the military-industrial complex, the generals, and the politicians who persuade us into these conflicts. I believe it would be beneficial for the Palestine movement to engage in more open dialogue with those who support Israel, as I think many of them are misinformed about the true nature of Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians.
Thanks a lot, Kei. It was great wrapping up our discussion like this. I believe getting to know each other better is beneficial for everyone involved. Before we part ways, I just wanted to acknowledge both of you. Typically in conflicts, people are shouting from behind barricades or addressing their followers without truly engaging with the opposing side. Although things may have gotten intense and raw emotions may persist, it’s understandable. I hope each one of us takes a moment to take care of ourselves and reflect positively on our actions. Not everyone is willing to sit down for these difficult yet crucial conversations. So, thank you both once again. Let’s keep this dialogue going and make sure we listen to each other.
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2025-04-24 00:27