Critics’ Conversation: On That ‘White Lotus’ Bromance and TV’s Incest Obsession

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DANIEL FIENBERG’S PARAPHRASING: The last month has made it clear that Mike White possesses a unique ability to create TV shows that spark and maintain conversations. However, I find it intriguing to observe the topics that emerge when people discuss The White Lotus.

Year after year, there’s been talk about the unknown character who will meet their demise in this season and the backstory behind their death, but it’s never been a topic that particularly piqued my curiosity when it comes to the show White Lotus. (I reserve the right to alter my opinion though, if the murderer happens to be a monkey.)

Additionally, there has been a focus on North Carolina accents – it turns out that the suburban accent of Durham is distinct from its urban one – and Aimee Lou Wood’s teeth, demonstrating that the audience of The White Lotus isn’t solely composed of fans from Sex Education or those who pursued Living, where Wood delivered exceptional supporting work alongside Bill “Not the Science Guy” Nighy.

Over the last fortnight, there’s been a recurring theme in discussions, and it isn’t about the famous TV personality seeking revenge for his father’s demise, nor the Academy Award winner who delivered an unforgettable monologue in episode 5, or even the trio of women who have been accused of infidelity and supporting Trump.

It seems everyone’s buzzing with speculation over the events involving brothers Saxon (Patrick Schwarzenegger) and Lochlan (Sam Nivola). Initially, it was just a kiss, but things escalated to intimate moments under the covers. Unfortunately, this has sparked widespread discussion about incest, a significant societal taboo or potential crime, in a shallow and lighthearted manner online.

Hi there! After watching the advance copies of the first six episodes before the season’s start, Angie, did you find yourself astonished by the events involving Saxon and Lochlan? Also, has your reaction to their relationship been different from what the audience seems to be feeling?

ANGIE HAN: I wasn’t as shocked by the Saxon-Lochlan situation because I had heard a lot of talk about it prior. By the time I arrived, I was almost expecting more to happen. (It’s also worth noting that the Ratliff children gave off some very unsettling vibes even before Lochy witnessed a Saxon preparing to masturbate in the first episode.)

Apart from this, it’s worth noting that the unexpected elements in “The White Lotus” aren’t entirely novel. The second season introduced a surprising twist involving an uncle and his nephew having an intimate relationship, which later turned out to be a misdirection (they weren’t actually related). However, given Mike White’s penchant for pushing boundaries and heightening the shock factor, it wouldn’t be unexpected if he were to explore the theme of real incest in future episodes.

The topic of incest can be quite overwhelming, as it tends to overshadow everything else in a given context. Take, for instance, the television series last fall titled “Monsters: The Lyle and Erik Menendez Story“. Despite its numerous shocking elements, such as graphic depictions of murder, what sparked the most conversation was the disquieting relationship between the brothers, reaching a peak in an intensely steamy shower scene.

In simpler terms, I’m pondering about alternative reasons for shows like “Monsters” that sensationalize taboo topics such as incest, which are less common in today’s TV landscape to grab viewers’ attention. While I’m not entirely convinced that the portrayal of the Menendez brothers’ relationship served a greater purpose in the series, it often seemed to either titillate by highlighting their moral corruption or depict the tragic outcome of years of abuse at the hands of their father. Trying to present both aspects simultaneously felt uncomfortable and exploitative.

Regarding “The White Lotus”, I’m still undecided about it. It’s interesting that Lochlan and Saxon’s romantic encounter occurs alongside Sam Rockwell’s monologue, where he fantasizes about being an Asian girl being pursued by a white man like himself. These scenes align with the show’s broader topics of attraction, self-perception, and projection. I’m curious to see how these themes will develop throughout the season.

However, consider this: How often do you encounter individuals discussing that subject, versus those who merely express shock or disapproval over the sibling-to-sibling interaction?

Scott Fienberg is hesitant to discuss the series “Menendez: Monsters — The Lyle and Erik Menendez Story” because Ryan Murphy seems to be trying to have it both ways. On one hand, he’s suggesting that incest is abhorrent and a justification for murder, but on the other, he’s making it seem attractive by having two handsome actors, who are not real-life brothers, in a shower scene together. Not everything can be viewed in such a contradictory manner, especially something as serious as incest.

From my perspective as a passionate admirer, Mike White has an intriguing approach to vacations – he strives to make them alluring and mysterious, yet he perceives resort environments as places that erode the essential barriers of our society. The ethical framework that prevents us from succumbing to our basic instincts gets dismantled, leading inevitably to a breakdown in even the most fundamental sense of decency. Freud, with his recurring focus on incest, particularly in Oedipal contexts, saw the prohibition of this urge as a cornerstone of civilization’s structure. Consequently, when White writes his characters out of civilization, incest serves as an effective indicator of how far they’ve deviated from societal norms.

The development has been subtle, with each season gradually introducing more provocative situations. For instance, the first season featured Sydney Sweeney’s character Olivia, who was convinced her brother would inappropriately fantasize about her best friend while on their Hawaiian vacation, thus putting the Mossbachers in a state of uncomfortable closeness and intimacy. In the second season, as you mention, there was the non-traditional relationship between an uncle and nephew, and it’s also important to recall that this same season depicted a father and son both utilizing the services of the same sex worker.

This season began with the Ratliff siblings discussing their sleeping arrangements, followed by Saxon exhibiting an unusual curiosity about Sarah Catherine Hook’s presumed virginity, accompanied by hints of voyeuristic tendencies and suggestions of shared partners. Then, the contested encounter took place.

To put it simply, can you genuinely trust that the events involving Saxon and Lochlan truly occurred, given the presence of party drugs? Is there a chance we’re being deceived again? Does Mike White aim to be known as the Showrunner who exaggerated incestuous relationships unnecessarily? (By the way, is Hook trying to create a portfolio by playing young women involved in unusual familial relationships, whether they are stepsisters or otherwise? It seems, as the cement-mixing pelican from The Flintstones would say, quite peculiar.)

It seems quite plausible that the alleged incest occurred between Saxon and Lochlan, given that they both independently remember the event, and Chloe casually mentions it to Saxon without any prompting. Additionally, we haven’t been provided with any reasons to doubt that Saxon and Lochlan are truly brothers. While there could be a twist in the story, for now, I find myself less questioning whether the incest is genuine and more intrigued about its implications.

In my opinion, the relationship between the Ratliff brothers appears to be precariously balanced on a thin line between the desire to physically involve with someone and the yearning to establish their own identity. Throughout the season, Saxon has shown an eagerness to shape Lochlan in his image, while Lochlan, equally, admires his older brother. The moment shared by them that night – influenced by alcohol, drugs, and the peculiar vacation mindset where things seem less real than they would at home – suggests more a blending and exchange of identities, hinted at in Rockwell’s speech, rather than giving into some latent attraction that has been building up.

It’s unlikely that their intellectual discussions will bring much solace to the two brothers who find themselves in an unexpected situation – they have become involved with each other. However, this predicament might be a part of what the season is exploring: the intersection of abstract thoughts and real-life circumstances. It’s easy to dream about transcending physical or familial boundaries, or even historical, cultural, or societal ones. But it’s a different story when you have to deal with the tangible repercussions that come from attempting such things.

It’s intriguing to note that families like the Ratliffs, Menendezes, Targaryens from “House of the Dragon,” and Merteuil-Belmonts in “Cruel Intentions” (even though they aren’t blood relatives, their close relationship hints at incest, adding a touch of naughtiness) are often portrayed as affluent and influential. Could it be that these scandalous relationships symbolize the moral decay and extravagance among the elite? Perhaps these characters are so shielded by their wealth that they can evade consequences for actions that ordinary people cannot? Or is this trend of incest or incest-related narratives emerging only now, or merely a coincidence?

It can be said that: Among all types of “advantages” or “privileges”, the one referred to as “incest privilege” is certainly the most offensive.

In many television series depicting lower-income families, incest is portrayed as sexual assault, often as a shocking and terrible event. However, when it comes to historical dramas and epic fantasies, incest is more commonly presented as dynastic, reflecting the practice of intermarriage and inbreeding that was prevalent for centuries. For instance, Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip are cousins, yet their relationship on “The Crown” isn’t given much attention due to the royal custom of marrying equals, usually from within or another significant family line. This practice was necessary because the pool of suitable partners was often limited to those within the same dynasty or a different one in another country. Over time, even these bloodlines started intermingling rapidly.

Incorporating dragons into the mix creates a common fantasy theme. Regarding Jaime and Cersei Lannister, we’re expected to feel repulsed, but the act of pushing Bran out the window is an even more heinous act due to the way it was portrayed in ‘Game of Thrones’. The show suggests that incest among Lannisters and Targaryens is a regular occurrence. In other words, their incestuous relationship seems to be a typical Lannister and Targaryen behavior.

Indeed, it’s worth noting that this situation bears no resemblance whatsoever to the esteemed Ratliff family, who are considered Southern nobility. However, to maintain a distinction between Duke and UNC, it seems they strive to prevent close familial relationships, such as siblings dating each other. So, in simple terms, it appears that romantic involvement between siblings is not an option for them.

As a gamer, I’ve found this current season of White Lotus to be a stark reflection of how these luxurious resorts have evolved into private sanctuaries for the elite. This year, it feels like stepping into an exclusive gated community populated by TV celebrities and financial masterminds – maybe even a few lucky souls like Rick. The more we’re shielded from the outside world, the more introspective we become. And when you’re surrounded by opulence, there’s not much left to examine but our own inner workings.

Could we instead discuss the unusual prevalence of incest themes on television recently? This is much like asking why so many wealthy individuals are in Donald Trump’s cabinet or speculating that Don Jr. could potentially run for president in 2028. It’s unclear whether America is transitioning towards an oligarchy or a monarchy, but with the abundance of influential figures who possess significant wealth, it’s not unreasonable to wonder if this trend might be a byproduct, if we are indeed following a monarchical model.

Despite Mike White’s tendency to provoke, it remains uncertain whether Saxon and Lochlan engaged in incest. It seems HBO might have certain boundaries regarding content, even if provocative. That night, everyone was under the influence of drugs, making clear recollections hazy. While there may be agreement on a kiss, memories could be distorted and fragmented about more explicit events. However, I’m not confident in any account that provides a definitive and unbiased version of what transpired. The individual who was least involved, Chelsea (Wood), is the one with the clearest sobriety.

HAN: To some extent, it’s clear that the show wants us to consider the possibility of incest – it’s intentionally raising this thought, aware that it will catch people off guard and make them uncomfortable. But is this merely a tactic for causing shock, or do we believe there’s a deeper reason behind this plot point? Could there be some meaningful purpose beyond just provoking audiences?

I believe that White has earned enough trust over the past two seasons, along with his other impressive works such as Enlightened, for me to assume he has a more complex and captivating plan rather than just causing a stir among viewers. However, it remains uncertain what this plan is exactly, and whether this specific controversial plot point was the best approach – we’ll have to wait until the final episodes of the season to find out.

Man, I’ve got to say, that twist in the last episode really grabbed my attention! The revelation that those two characters weren’t who they seemed was a shocker, and it’s left me on the edge of my seat! The Saxon-Lochlan connection is adding so much intrigue to the storyline, making it hard to look away. It seems like everyone’s been buzzing about this show lately, can’t wait to see what happens next!

However, this raises the question about our future direction. If the series continues to aim for increasing levels of audacity each season, is there any place left that could truly shock us anymore?

FIENBERG: Monkeys. With. Guns, Angie. Monkeys with guns. Gunkeys?

Indeed, you’re correct. Shows with incest themes seem prevalent on television currently, and we’ve had an extensive conversation about it. However, introducing the concept of ‘gunkeys’ could indeed mark a fresh development.

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2025-03-24 16:55