‘Heretic’ Filmmakers on Their Thought-Provoking Ending and “Battle Campaign” to Cast Hugh Grant in Villain Role

‘Heretic’ Filmmakers on Their Thought-Provoking Ending and “Battle Campaign” to Cast Hugh Grant in Villain Role

As a humble filmmaker with roots deep in the heartland of Iowa, I can truly say that the collaboration between Aaron and Ian is a breath of fresh air in today’s cinematic landscape. Their journey from shooting student films in The Last Picture House to directing critically acclaimed features like ‘Heretic’ is nothing short of inspiring.


[This story contains some spoilers to Heretic.]

The heavens have smiled on Scott Beck and Bryan Woods’ Heretic

Critics and viewers believe that the fourth film made by these writer-directors represents their best work to date, an achievement that has taken time given that the idea for this thought-provoking religious horror movie was developed before they became known as co-writers of the 2018 hit, A Quiet Place. The film primarily focuses on a trio consisting of two Mormon missionaries, Sisters Barnes (Sophie Thatcher) and Paxton (Chloe East), and a potential convert named Mr. Reed (Hugh Grant). Upon entering the Englishman’s house to promote the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the missionaries soon find themselves caught in a dangerous game of intellectual trickery designed to challenge and undermine their faith.

Given they had previously sought the wisdom of a spiritual guide, their long-time friends and collaborators, Barnes and Paxton, needed to temporarily halt their creative work and delve into study before further developing their initial manuscript.

Approximately ten years ago, we embarked on the script for Heretic. As we approached the scene where Reed meets the two missionaries, we realized we weren’t fully comfortable with his voice. Every line we wrote required a pause to look up information on Wikipedia. The result felt forced and unnatural, so we spent ten years researching various aspects of Reed’s character…to ensure that writing him would eventually feel like speaking his native language.

To embody the intricate role of Mr. Reed, the duo could think of no other candidate. They put all their efforts into making it happen, pushing relentlessly for their ideal choice.

The battle strategy was carefully orchestrated. Once we determined that Hugh was the ideal candidate for the part, we reached out to everyone at CAA, A24, and anyone with a connection to Hugh. Essentially, we asked for their help in getting the role to him. We pleaded with them, ‘There’s no one else who can do this role justice but Hugh Grant. Please assist us in convincing him that this project is worth his time.’

Previously, Beck, Woods, and Sister Barnes had collaborated with Thatcher on Rob Savage’s movie “The Boogeyman” (2023), where she was the main character. This prior experience helped them become acquainted with her for the role of Sister Barnes. Similarly, East’s performance in Steven Spielberg’s “The Fabelmans” as Sammy Fabelman’s devout girlfriend caught their attention for the role of Sister Paxton. Beck mentioned that Spielberg praised both Thatcher and East’s performances in a recent conversation about their film “Heretic.” It so happens that both actresses had a background in the Mormon church before transitioning into acting, but this was not the sole reason for their casting; other factors also played a significant role.

Throughout, we matched their authentic experiences, and at the end of the day, it might have swayed things a bit,” Woods explains. “However, we’re cautious about stating that because it seems oversimplified. It gives an impression of them being mere castings for effect, undermining their talent. Yet, they are immensely talented actors, and we aspire to collaborate with them on various roles in the future.

In the discussion with THR, Beck and Woods share insights from a year of managing The Last Picture House, their indie cinema in Davenport, Iowa. They also ponder the possibility of completing an directors’ cut for their Adam Driver-led sci-fi film, 65.

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In other words, is it possible that the factors came together unusually well during the production of “Heretic,” making it stand out as the best work of your directing career so far, compared to your past projects?

SCOTT BECK This experience has been incredibly rewarding for us, as professionals. Working alongside talents like Hugh Grant, Chloe East, and Sophie Thatcher, along with an artist-friendly studio such as A24, was truly a privilege. Additionally, collaborating closely with a producer we’ve always admired, Stacey Sher, made the journey even more special. There are countless creative partners on this project that I could praise, but let me emphasize that our goal was to create a deeply personal film exploring belief and disbelief, as well as the mysteries surrounding death. After investing so much of ourselves into the production, it’s thrilling to see it resonate with audiences.

‘Heretic’ Filmmakers on Their Thought-Provoking Ending and “Battle Campaign” to Cast Hugh Grant in Villain Role

The movie “Heretic” was revealed shortly after the year 65, so I assumed you had been developing it for some time. However, I didn’t know it was created before “A Quiet Place.” Did the intelligence of Director Grant Reed truly challenge you in the process?

Bryan Woods chuckles, “We began drafting ‘Heretic’ approximately 10 years ago… but it didn’t feel genuine, so we embarked on an exploration over those years by delving into thought-provoking writers such as Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins. Our research wasn’t nightly library sessions, but we immersed ourselves in the thoughts of atheist thinkers, contemporary philosophers, along with religious texts we hadn’t previously read, like the ‘Book of Mormon’ or the Quran, to prepare for Reed’s first language. Scott and I experienced a particularly tough emotional period. My father passed away from cancer, and numerous other challenges arose, pushing us to a point where it was time to write about religion, which we’d always wanted to explore. It was the right moment to express our fears and uncertainties surrounding death and the enigma of mortality. That’s where ‘Heretic’ originated from, and once we sat down to write the script sincerely, it flowed effortlessly out of us.

Your creations often capture our attention with intriguing opening points. These are usually story-driven, such as an astronaut stranded on ancient Earth or a family living among ear-seeking aliens. In this instance, it’s the suggestion of a sweet-smelling blueberry pie candle that catches our imagination.

BECK and WOODS (Laugh)

How did that materialize?

BECK Instead of following the path taken by films like “A Quiet Place” and “65,” which have no dialogue, we aimed to take a different approach with our movie, “Heretic.” Our goal was to explore how dialogue and religious themes could be used as weapons to generate fear comparable to that in “A Quiet Place.” Additionally, we wanted to make the film as strange or unusual as possible. Interestingly enough, A24 has capitalized on the blueberry pie aspect from a marketing standpoint. In terms of the film’s content, we discuss board games like Monopoly and delve into ideas about iteration, using examples such as Radiohead, Lana Del Rey, and the Hollies having iterations of each other’s songs. This reflects our unique taste in films. We appreciate every movie in Francois Truffaut’s filmography, but we also learn from Dennis Dugan’s work as well. Our taste ranges quite broadly across various genres of movies.

WOODS Heretic is the marriage of lowbrow and highbrow, at least that was the intention.

‘Heretic’ Filmmakers on Their Thought-Provoking Ending and “Battle Campaign” to Cast Hugh Grant in Villain Role

Did you send the script to Hugh Grant’s agent on a lark just to see what would happen? 

In a carefully orchestrated strategy, we were determined to secure Hugh Grant for this role. Once we made the decision, we reached out to everyone at CAA, A24, and anyone else with a connection to him. Essentially, we pleaded, “Please, please, please. There’s only one person who can embody this character, it’s Hugh Grant. Help us reach him and convince him that this project is perfect for him.” This was a risky move because if Hugh declined our offer, we couldn’t turn back to those 20 people and say, “Just kidding about Hugh. We meant someone else instead.” But we were so convinced that Hugh was the right choice, especially after reevaluating his acting career over the past decade, from his role in Cloud Atlas to playing an Oompa-Loompa in Wonka. The unconventional roles he’s taken are daring and truly inspiring.

It seems like you might have considered casting Sophie Thatcher after seeing a cut of The Boogeyman, a film you co-wrote and produced. However, when you walked out of Steven Spielberg’s The Fabelmans, did Chloe East cross your mind as the ideal choice for Sister Paxton?

In a unique twist, Chloe East left such an indelible impression on us after watching “The Fabelmans.” It’s amusing how her portrayal of a religious character in that film seems to have foreshadowed her role in this one. Her performance was so genuine and authentic, it became a vision we were compelled to pursue. We kept bringing her back for auditions, and even paired her with other actors. The connection was undeniable for us. Until yesterday, we hadn’t shared this with anyone outside our parents, but the ultimate compliment came when Steven Spielberg himself called our producer Stacey Sher. He had watched “Heretic” because he had cast Chloe in “The Fabelmans” and wanted to see where her career had taken her. He was thrilled with her performance as Sister Paxton, and also loved the movie. It was one of those moments when you witness genius at work, trying to draw talent from a legendary figure’s sphere into your own production, and then it came full circle with that phone call yesterday.

‘Heretic’ Filmmakers on Their Thought-Provoking Ending and “Battle Campaign” to Cast Hugh Grant in Villain Role

Barnes and Paxton, who are Mormon missionaries, and Sophie and Chloe, who left the Mormon Church to pursue acting at a young age – how significantly did their common upbringing influence their experiences?

In a nutshell, we didn’t intentionally seek out Mormon individuals for our Mormon characters, but rather focused on finding the most suitable actors based on their skills and what they could bring to the roles. However, certain actors showed an authenticity in their portrayals that was hard to ignore. For instance, Chloe could convincingly adopt a Utah missionary accent because she had grown up among Mormons and had Mormon friends. This authenticity resonated with us, leading us to call them back frequently. While it’s true that this shared experience may have given them an edge, we’re careful not to oversimplify the situation as it might seem like they were just “stunt castings” or lacked talent. On the contrary, these actors are exceptionally talented and we look forward to working with them in various roles in the future.

The question of where Mr. Reed ends and the two of you begin is probably on some people’s minds. 

BECK and WOODS (Laugh)

Indeed, I’m speaking about the sound arguments he presents, not his alleged madness. How significant is the common ground between these points?

BECK There’s quite a bit in common between us, Mr. Reed, and anyone else who’s watching the movie and finding themselves nodding along. If you consider leaders like Keith Raniere or L. Ron Hubbard from a historical perspective, they were charismatic figures who made some points worth considering, even if they got many things wrong. It’s possible to argue that religion can be both beneficial and detrimental. The key question is whether the arguments being presented are encroaching on other people’s beliefs or rights. I believe Mr. Reed has several legitimate viewpoints and thoughts about challenging our conventional views on religion, which often go unquestioned. This conversation mirrors many discussions that Bryan and I have had over time. Essentially, it boils down to exploring why, as a society, we arrive at certain conclusions about religion.

In many stories, villains can be difficult to empathize with, such as those cold-hearted Bond antagonists who plan world domination. However, the most intriguing villains are those whose actions reflect some of our own internal struggles or desires. We were thrilled to infuse our emotions and ideas into this character’s dialogue, but it’s worth noting that we did the same for the characters representing missionaries as well. Our thoughts and feelings are scattered like leaves in the wind. One quote from the film captures this idea: “The more you know, the less you know.” As we grow older, we find ourselves drawn to the idea that life is a grand enigma. The unknown of what happens after death is the greatest mystery, yet there’s something captivating about embracing the uncertainty. There’s beauty in the quest for truth and understanding, even as we acknowledge that we may never truly know until it’s too late.

‘Heretic’ Filmmakers on Their Thought-Provoking Ending and “Battle Campaign” to Cast Hugh Grant in Villain Role

If you found it challenging to perform “The Air That I Breathe” by The Hollies and the acoustic version of “Creep” by Radiohead, what other song did you consider using to demonstrate the concept of iteration in music instead?

WOODS We had no contingency plan! We were filled with dread. When we penned that scene, we felt exhilarated and incredibly proud of our work, but that feeling quickly turned sour: “This will never make it past the draft. We’ll never secure Monopoly rights. We’ll never be able to expose Radiohead’s secrets.” So it became a disheartening moment, and at this point, we reached out to Stacey Sher, the producer of Pulp Fiction, pleading for her help in producing our movie with us. We sought her assistance in accomplishing what seemed nearly impossible – incorporating all these pop culture references into the film. Thus, there was no safety net, and we were anxious right up until three weeks ago. There were some last-minute negotiations over rights.

BECK To ensure all legal aspects were properly addressed, both Beck and I were meticulous. The scene in the film serving as a pivotal example was crucial for Reed to effectively convey his message, since its absence would have left no clear way for him to do so.

Didn’t you request that both “Under Pressure” by Queen and David Bowie, as well as “Ice Ice Baby” by Vanilla Ice, be prepared for use at a later time to your music supervisor?

BECK (laughs heartily) Oh, that’s an intriguing twist! It’d be fascinating to witness and listen to Reed giving Vanilla Ice’s songs a try.

Have any of your friends from Iowa attempted to persuade you to incorporate “The Heretic Anthem” from the album “Iowa” by Slipknot in your work?

BECK (Laughs) Of course, it naturally arose in our discussion. We always enjoy welcoming folks from our local area whenever possible.

The concluding sequence stirred up much discussion following its premiere, as it seems to relate to a theory presented within the film. Could this finale be an homage to the spinning top from Inception?

BECK Yeah …

FOREST It’s great to hear that your screening sparked some debate! That’s exactly the kind of reaction we aimed for. I see where you’re coming from with the spinning top comparison, and there’s definitely some validity to it. One of our inspirations was David Mamet’s play, Oleanna, which delves into gender dynamics within academia. It’s said that audiences would argue as they left the theater after seeing it. While we don’t expect Heretic to be quite as explosive, we can’t shake off our Midwestern politeness. Interestingly, we found ourselves empathizing with all of the characters in this film. However, the discourse and discussion that might ensue after viewing the movie is what we were striving for. In the film, we’re not so much critiquing belief or disbelief, but rather certainty. Specifically, we’re examining the idea that “I know what the one true religion is, and you’re wrong,” or “There is no [one true] religion, and you’re crazy.” This notion of absolute certainty is what we’re trying to scrutinize.

As a devoted fan, it’s truly captivating to listen to fellow viewers who’ve rewatched our movie multiple times, as their interpretation seems to grow with each viewing. Just like the complexities of atheism or strong religious beliefs, our film’s ending might hold different meanings for us in five years. The beauty lies in the fact that our understanding and perspective can evolve over time.

“Let me tell you, there was quite a discussion among us after savoring those delicious blueberry pastries. Some even referred to it as a ‘multi-sensory experience.'”

BECK (Laughs) That’s great. The only thing better would be Taco Bell.

How did the end credits’ generative AI disclaimer come to be?

BECK Including a disclaimer about our use of generative AI reflects our concerns about the rapidly advancing technology and its potential misuse. The speed at which AI is being developed is alarming, and unregulated use of generative AI is causing fear. We’re not just worried about the loss of jobs or the theft of intellectual property, but also about how this technology might undermine the essence of human creativity in art. While people may understand the need to protect truth in journalism, they might overlook the significance of preserving human authenticity in art. It’s ironic that many supporters of generative AI are artists themselves, yet they may not realize they’re undermining their own craft.

Recently, we found ourselves engrossed in an episode of The Bret Easton Ellis Podcast, featuring interviews with Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary. In this particular discussion, Bret mentioned an intriguing incident concerning a movie he was directing. He explained that his FX team couldn’t create a creature to his satisfaction, so he utilized generative AI for five minutes to design something acceptable and passed it on to the crew to replicate. Tarantino and Avary seemed unphased by this revelation, moving past the topic without much comment. This situation struck us as questionable, bordering on plagiarism, given that generative AI essentially combines existing works of art. We can’t help but wonder how demeaning it must be for the artists involved in the film, to receive an algorithm-created design and be asked to reproduce it. We wish influential figures like Tarantino, Ellis, and others would address these issues publicly, as we believe their talents should thrive without being automated. Perhaps they have not given this matter much thought yet. Therefore, we feel compelled to issue a disclaimer: it’s crucial for everyone to start considering the implications of generative AI in creative fields.

Hey there! I was wondering about The Last Picture House, your local cinema in Davenport, Iowa. Everything going smoothly on that end?

Over the past year, our cinema has been an exhilarating adventure! By Thanksgiving, we’ll have been open for nearly a year, and it’s safe to say that running a movie theater is like stepping into the Wild West – full of excitement! As filmmakers, we thought we understood the film industry, but as exhibitors, it’s a whole new ball game. We’ve experienced the rollercoaster of strikes and their impact on the selection of films, yet it’s the smaller movies that are truly captivating audiences. For instance, we had packed houses for a movie like Late Night with the Devil. During summer, our rooftop screenings showcase various classics, rekindling the shared experience of going to the cinema that many have missed in recent years due to streaming. Our aim with this venture was to revive the communal aspect of moviegoing, and we’re thrilled to say mission accomplished! However, this endeavor has added a layer of stress as we anticipate upcoming film releases and strive to choose those that will resonate with our audience. We’re firm believers in the cinema-going experience – it’s about sharing a unique moment watching something on screen together, which is a key element reflected in all our films, including Heretic.

FORESTS Theatrical films continue to produce cultural events in a unique way that streaming movies can’t, regardless of how many people watch them. This is peculiar because they find it hard to generate a cultural phenomenon and a widespread discussion that unites everyone. Thus, attending the cinema remains a captivating experience.

Hugh Grant strongly advocates for the charm of live theater. He’s been vocal about opening a Last Picture House in London, as his favorite local cinema recently shut down. He’s someone who cherishes going to the movies, and he appreciates the authenticity that comes from watching films on 35mm film – something tangible and genuine. Over the years, the movie industry has experienced its fair share of changes. Even if we look back over the past century, it seems to always go through these peculiar phases. However, just like a Heretic might not fully believe in their convictions, we can’t completely dismiss the idea that we’re currently in one of those phases; it’s more an intuitive feeling for us.

I recently chatted with Kevin Smith concerning his New Jersey cinema, and one of the factors that motivated him to acquire it, apart from safeguarding his childhood playground, was its availability as a shooting spot. Consequently, he produced a movie there titled “The 4:30 Movie,” which serves as his personal equivalent to “Fabelmans.” Have you incorporated your theater into any scripts so far as a filming location?

BECK Your suggestion is incredibly useful! It’s proven to be quite beneficial. During our work on Heretic, we organized an extremely private friends and family screening of a rough cut in a theater. This experience is significantly distinct from simply showing it in someone’s living room. The tension or laughter from the dark humor can be truly felt in a theater, which is something that cannot be replicated. We strongly believe this is essential. However, we haven’t incorporated this into our script yet. Now, we find ourselves questioning, “Why didn’t we think of this earlier? It seems so obvious!

It’s quite amusing that The Last Picture House, which once served as an old warehouse, was the location where we filmed our student projects when we were just 16 years old in Iowa. Now, it holds a significant place in our hearts as filmmakers, making it a sacred site for us.

I’ve always been captivated by the camaraderie within the filmmaking community, notably their practice of providing notes to each other during post-production. In fact, I recently chatted with Chris Stuckmann this year about how you both provided him with comments on an early cut of his directorial debut, “Shelby Oaks.” You two also had a robust feedback system in place for “Heretic,” so could you share your general thoughts on the feedback you received?

In our fortunate circumstances, some of our favorite movie directors generously provided feedback on our project, “Heretic”. Some of this input came about serendipitously. David Lowery had been offering advice on remote editing using Adobe Premiere, a format we prefer and that very few filmmakers utilize. Impulsively, we inquired if he would be willing to review a cut, and his reaction to the film was incredibly heartwarming and inspiring. He offered insightful suggestions about maintaining tension and avoiding letting it dissipate with too much broad humor. In other instances, our exceptional producer Stacey Sher managed to show the movie to some of our idols from our childhood. Steven Soderbergh, along with editors Pietro Scalia and Fred Raskin, all presented us with captivating ideas for refining the third act, and we incorporated every single note they gave us. As we delve deeper into the creative process, it becomes so much simpler to perceive our film from another’s perspective.

Are you wondering if the 110-minute director’s cut of “65” will ever be shown at The Last Picture House? While we can’t promise that it definitely will, we certainly hope so. That film holds a special place in our hearts, so we spend a lot of time considering its potential screenings.

BECK There’s discussion about whether it would benefit from a Zack Snyder-style treatment, with added funds for visual effects and other elements not included in the original cut. It’s an intriguing idea, but it’s uncertain at this point. Both myself and Adam Driver have a strong affection for the project, but we’re unsure if this is something we’ll pursue.

Did you have a follow-up idea or project prepared when we spoke during our 65 interview, or is it something you’re planning to work on now as well?

BECK Currently, we have five items in our pockets, yet what truly excites us is innovative filmmaking. We’re drawn to exploring uncharted territories and not just delving into established material, although we certainly enjoy watching those films as well. Our interests span a broad spectrum. For instance, there’s a spiritual successor to Heretic, a project that delves into potentially contentious themes for audiences. However, we also have this long-standing science fiction concept that we’ve been nurturing for around 10 to 12 years, an idea that refuses to fade away. We enjoy moving across different extremes of the film industry spectrum, transitioning from a small, contained horror project like A Quiet Place, to something as expansive as 65, which features grandeur but then veering dramatically in the opposite direction with extensive dialogue and a performance-driven focus. As such, we might venture into a completely different direction now.

In our role as filmmakers, we thrive on tackling difficult tasks. We equally enjoy pushing the boundaries and observing what can be achieved. It’s an exhilarating yet nerve-wracking experience. Occasionally, we succeed in engaging our audience, but there are times when we stumble. However, we’re content to stumble if it leads us towards something intriguing.

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Heretic is now playing in movie theaters.

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2024-11-10 06:26